Sunday, April 20, 2008

Paul Washer on Calvinism

Seen at Lane's Blog

John 10:25-27
25
Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

"If this were written today by some of the most popular preachers alive, it would be totally and completely the opposite. It says 'you do not believe because you are not my sheep' and they would rewrite it as 'you are not my sheep because you do not believe.' There is a major difference in these two things."
-Paul Washer


32 comments:

Robert said...

Is PW a Calvinist?

I've heard him say some things before that were squarely aimed at Calvinists that were just the opposite...hmmm

Is there more information that I can get...I love PW's preaching no matter what...

Philip@ReformedVoices said...

Hi Robert,

Yes, Paul Washer is a calvinist by definition based on his view of God's sovereign work in salvation and the nature of man. He seems to want to distance himself from just having a label of "calvinist" on him due to the prejudices and misunderstandings that folks have against calvinism and he would rather just consider himself a student of the bible, (which to Paul teaches a view of salvation that is in line with calvinist soteriology.)

Please listen to this audio though for further clarification on Paul's view of this issue and its implication for our missions and our methodology.

Robert said...

Phillip,
Actually, I'd agree with Paul...we aren't Calvinist's, but are students of the word...and Calivinist doctrine is the only (as far as I can see)one that is consistent with the whole of scripture..

Thanks for clearing that up...
bob

Jane said...

Everyone has the personal choice of whom he will follow. I chose not to follow John Calvin because he disagrees with Jesus all those times he says Christ 'does not speak with strict accuracy' (Calvin comment at John 6:28, etc).

I don't need a man reforming (correcting) the faith (truth) of Jesus to fit a faith of his own. That's what the cult leaders do. But I also believe that God allows men to follow whosoever they will. That God forces no one to believe and follow the Word (God) is evidenced by those who believe to choose and follow John Calvin instead.

Thank God he has given us the truth by which we can compare what any man says. Otherwise, how could we know who is lying to us?

Robert said...

Jane,
that sounds nice on the surface but it misses the point.

It's unfortunate that the doctrines that are so clearly taught in scripture are labled "Calvinism," but make no mistake, they are biblical.

for myself? I'm with you...I follow Jesus. For example:

Why do some not believe? Jesus answers "Because they are not my sheep"
John 6:35-45


Why does he speak in parables?
"...so that although they may see, they do not see, hear but do not hear lest the repent and be forgiven."
Mark 4:10-11


Who did Jesus pray for the night before he was killed?

"Father, I do NOT pray for the world, but I pray for those you gave me out of the world, you gave them to me and they are yours, and I didn't lose one, except the one destined for destruction"
Matthew 7

so yes...I follow Jesus


How about you Jane? Can you "get behind" these statements of His?

Jane said...

Robert,

As for Jesus not praying for the world, did you know that Calvinists in their 'reformed' ESV translation define 'the world' in John 3:16 as 'the elect', which would be them... as they say.

Now let's talk about Judgment. In Calvin's system, there was no judgment of men before Calvinism's 'Decree' to heaven or hell. In Jesus' system, he says it is as he "hears" that he judges and that his judgment is "just" (John 5:30) because he judges men according to the will of his Father, which is.... "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life...." John 6:40

As the Judge of all mankind, how could Jesus have Decreed anyone to heaven or hell w/o hearing them, to know whether they told the truth or were lying about him to others? ("Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?" John 7:51) Looks like Jesus is the Law Keeper after all!

For God's sentiments on Israel's lack of Judgment, Justice, Equity, and Truth see: Isa 59:14,15; Jer 7:24 (Don't Cavinists teach that they're Israel, God's chosen people, the elect?)

Jane said...

Robert,

Robert,

If John Calvin's telling us that Jesus doesn't speak with "strict accuracy" is missing the point, then what kind of point matters to you?

If you want to believe in John Calvin and accept his doctrines, God gave you the freedom to do so, just as he gave me the freedom to resist Mr. Calvin and reject his teachings. Thank God my heart's just not hard enough to much like Calvinism.

Robert said...

Jane,
I guess i wasn't clear enough...I'll try again.

In light of your previous comment about following Calvin instead of Jesus...

What comment do you have that DIRECTLY INTERACTS with the statements of Jesus in my post?

bob

Robert said...

Jane,
In the interest of addressing your point in the first comment that you made. I checked your citation of Calvin's comment "Christ does not speak with strict accuracy"

You said "all of the times he says that Christ does not speak with strict accuracy"

Well, I searched all of Calvins commentaries....

Guess what?

This is the one and only time he says that.

And DID YOU READ THE CONTEXT??

Calvin is making the observation that Faith IS NOT a work...I'm sure that you'd agree...Paul had a lot to say about that, true?

You misrepresented or misunderstood Calvins comment.

bob

Robert said...

Jane,
Here is Calvin's comment IN CONTEXT:


6:28 So then they said to him, “What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?”
6:29 Jesus replied,
47 “This is the deed God requires – to believe in the one whom he sent.”



And Calvin’s Comment IN CONTEXT:

29. The work of God is this. They had spoken of works. Christ reminds them of one work, that is, faith; by which
he means that all that men undertake without faith is vain and useless, but that faith alone is sufficient,
because this alone does God require from us, that we believe.

For there is here an implied contrast between faith and the works and efforts of men; as if he had said, Men toil to no purpose, when they endeavor to please God without faith, because, by running, as it were, out of the course, they do not advance towards the goal.
This is a remarkable passage, showing that, though men torment themselves wretchedly throughout their whole life, still they lose their pains, if they have not faith in Christ as the rule of their life.

But we may think it strange that God approves of nothing but faith alone; for the love of our neighbor ought not to be despised, and the other exercises of religion do not lose their place and honor. So then, though faith may hold the highest rank, still other works are not superfluous. The reply is easy; for faith does not exclude either the love of our neighbor or any other good work, because it contains them all within itself. Faith is called the only work of God, because by means of it we possess Christ, and thus become the sons of God, so that he governs us by his Spirit. So then, because Christ does not separate faith from its fruits, we need not wonder if he make it to be the first and the last.

138
That you believe in him whom he hath sent. What is the import of the word believe, we have explained under the Third Chapter. It ought always to be remembered that, in order to have a full perception of the power of faith, we must understand what Christ is, in whom we believe, and why he was given to us by the Father.
It is idle sophistry, under the pretext of this passage, to maintain that we are justified by works, if faith justifies, because it is likewise called a work. ***First, it is plain enough that Christ does not speak with strict accuracy,***When he calls faith a work, just as Paul makes a comparison between the law of faith and the law of works, (Romans 3:27.)

Secondly, when we affirm that men are not justified by works, we mean works by the merit of which men may obtain favor with God. Now faith brings nothing to God, but, on the contrary, places man before
God as empty and poor, that he may be filled with Christ and with his grace.




As I said...Calvin is saying that Christ is correcting the idea that you can "do a work and earn salvation"...what's the problem?

Jane said...

Robert,

First, here is the Scripture that our Author (Jesus) wrote: "Then said they unto him, What shall we "do", that we might "work" the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the "work" of God, that ye "believe" on him whom he hath sent. John 6:28,29

As we know, Mr. Calvin didn't like the idea of calling faith a 'work'. Hence, he didn't like Christ or Paul calling it a work either, which is why Calvin said.... "First, it is plain enough that Christ does not speak with strict accuracy, When he calls faith a work, just as Paul makes a comparison between the law of faith and the law of works, (Romans 3:27.)

When a man has 'faith' in the Word of God, he believes God and it is counted as righteousness unto him (Abraham). God gave Mr. Calvin the freedom to agree with or deny the truth (Christ). I cannot join with Calvin and deny him. That you are free to do the same should go without saying. Indeed, it is 'up to you' ....alone.

The work of God...that he believe on him whom he hath sent. I don't believe God sent Calvin to me, because he contradicts and reforms (corrects) Christ. I'll give you one guess who did though.

Robert said...

Jane,
Your "tradition glasses" have truly blinded your reading of this.

Calvin is AGREEING with scripture!

Faith is NOT a work in the sense that it's something that we DO and are rewarded for! We cannot earn God's favor...!

Now...

Would you PLEASE interact with the other 3 scripture passages that CONTRADICT the Arminian/Synergist view of Limited Atonement?

Robert said...

Jane,
I don't want to "rabbit trail" my earlier request that you "directly interact" with my 3 passages, but I would like to try and understand what you're saying...

Are you saying that Christ is saying that faith is a work?

If that's what you are saying then Christ (who also wrote the book of Romans right?) is not remembering what he wrote there...

Romans 4:4:
Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation. But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.


Faith is not a work according to Romans...if it was some work...then when God saves, it would be an obligation, rather that a gift. That's the whole point of Romans 4.

Again, Jesus, Calvin, and Romans are all saying that Faith is not a work...

I don't know how much clearer it can get.

Now..back to the other scriptures...

What did you think?
Did you take a look at them?

-----------------------
Why do some not believe?

Jesus answers "Because they are not my sheep"
John 6:35-45

------------------------

Why does he speak in parables?

"...so that although they may see, they do not see, hear but do not hear lest the repent and be forgiven."
Mark 4:10-11

------------------------

Who did Jesus pray for the night before he was killed?

"Father, I do NOT pray for the world, but I pray for those you gave me out of the world, you gave them to me and they are yours, and I didn't lose one, except the one destined for destruction"
(corrected to be John 17.)

-----------------------

Can you deal DIRECTLY with these scriptures on an EXEGETICAL LEVEL?

Instead of "editorializing" about them...exegete them. Take them in context, historical, grammatical, syntactical...

How do they impact your beliefs about Limited Atonement?

If you hold an opposite view of this subject that what scripture does, then wouldn't you agree that it's time to change your view?

I've done it many times...it's the only way for a Christian to be honest with himself/herself.

Robert said...

Jane?

Hellooooo

(is this thing on?)

Tim said...

I'll try to answer comment on those passages Robert. I'm not associated with either camp but have been doing some studying. (I'll go from the last to the first)

First for John 17, I believe the context is Jesus praying for his disciples, he talks about losing 1 from whom he was given. He was given 12 disciples and one was lost and betrayed him to fulfill scripture. In vs 20 he prays for those who will believe because of the disciples work. I believe that this rules out this verse as a Calvinist argument.

Second, Mark 4:10-11. It's true that spirtual things are foolishness to non-believers. This is plainly taught in scripture. Christ reiterates that here and says "lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." ie) If they repent from their unbelief and are converted they will be able to discern such spiritual things. Again, I don't see anything Calvinistic here...

Third, John 6:44 is true... it's plainly written, God the Father draws people to himself. But how does he do it? Through election or some special anointing of the spirit? vs 45 says that through the knowledge of God, we hear and learn about God... this is how he draws us. Romans 10:17 (faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God). 2 Thessalonians 2:14 (Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.).

We are drawn to him through the gospel! I'm no scholar but if there is a passage like 'God draws us' then anyone can easily look elsewhere in the Bible to further understand this truth.

Salvation is a free gift to those who repent (turn) from their unbelief and believe! (romans 1:16)

Go Share Your Faith said...

tim,
wow...what a wholly UN-exegetical analysis of those passages.

IS there any issue with what I've said on an EXEGETICAL level?

All you've done is say..."Gosh...I don't see it that way"...well duh...

Tim said...

I just read the verses. For example, you posted this verse...

"Father, I do NOT pray for the world, but I pray for those you gave me out of the world, you gave them to me and they are yours, and I didn't lose one, except the one destined for destruction" John 17

Who is he talking about in the context of this verse? In the context of this chapter? Jesus is telling God how he has trained them (vs 6-8); he states that he's sent them (vs 18); he prays for those who will believe based on their ministry (vs 20-21); and he states in vs 12 that one of them was 'destined for destruction'.

The context clearly shows that he's talking about the disciples here. I may not have given full paper breaking down the verse but I don't think that is necessary in this case.

You can't call me un-exegetical and imply that my analysis is faulty when you read this passage and conclude that "all believers are given by God to Jesus"; even if you don't conclude that, I was pointing out that this verse doesn't teach any principle of Calvinism.

I'm trying not to come to the text with a presupposition and attempt to prove or disprove. Just trying to use scripture to clarify other scripture.

This issue has been debated for centuries, we aren't going to solve it here. In my church all the leaders are Calvinist and teach that doctrine; many of my favorite preachers that I listen to online are Calvinists. But I've fallen into the trap when I was younger of following my favorite teacher/preacher. I sincerely want to understand Gods word for what it says; I take what people say with a critical view and make sure its what the Bible really says.

Calvin's doctrine of election is a bold claim, one that we must study carefully. And no matter which side of the argument we fall on we must remember our calling of service.

Preach, teach and make disciples. (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:15-16) He has given us his word so we can believe on Christ. (Rom 1:16)

Go Share Your Faith said...

Tim,
I'm sorry...I thought you'd have remembered John 6:37 and the context leading into this passage.

I John's gospel, men are given to the Son for salvation by the Father...and of course; not all men are given.

Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.

Now this is the will of the one who sent me – that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day.
So yes...this does teach Calvinism:

1.) Not all are given by the Father. (Limited Atonement)

2.) There are some destined for destruction. (predestination)

And as far as John 6 goes, (perseverance of the saints)

I agree with you; specifically, at those verses, Jesus is praying for the disciples...however later on Jesus prays for all believers in verse 20.

If you want to divorce John 17 from it's prior context you can, but I don't think that's fair...do you?


You said:

Calvin's doctrine of election is a bold claim, one that we must study carefully. I don't think it's bold at all. I think that the Arminian assertions of libertarian free will, and an impotent God who is trying to save everyone but in actuality saves no one is the bold claim.

Just in John 6 alone all of the doctrines of Grace are explicitly found.

The only texts that ever get sited to defend "Arminianism" are the big 4 that have been yanked out of context...or people use emotional appeals, or what have you...but they don't exegete the text that's for sure.

have a good day...

Tim said...

Robert, when you say

I'm sorry...I thought you'd have remembered John 6:37 and the context leading into this passage.My whole last post was on John 17, John 6 is not the context of John 17 nor anything I was talking about.

John 6 is an entirely separate discussion. Before I get to that, I want to address some of your other comments.

1. "...however later on Jesus prays for all believers in verse 20" You're exactly right, he prays for those will believe the disciples "believe on me through their word". But the next few verses talk about unity of those believers. Christ is praying for unity so "that the world may believe that thou hast sent me" (vs 21).

Everyone comes to the text with presuppositions, but I don't think anything in John 17 supports a Calvinistic presupposition.

2. "I think that the Arminian assertions of libertarian free will, and an impotent God who is trying to save everyone but in actuality saves no one is the bold claim." I never claimed any of this. Why try to weaken my responses by implying that I would actually believe that? I don't believe that; I've actually never studied Arminian and what he believed, but if he taught that then I definitely DO NOT agree him!

God is all powerful... He is God. We both serve and love the same all powerful, all knowing God! Reading through the old and new testament clearly shows time after time God wanting (willing) people to love him and follow his commandments. People constantly fail and reject God. God has the ability to force all or some to chose him but the bible doesn't teach that. It's not because he can't, it's because he chooses not to! There are many, many references that I could list here.

Now, If we are done in John 17, moving on to John 6.

A proper discussion of John 6 will probably go on for quite a while with both of us not changing our minds. If you are interested to continue our discussion, perhaps we can study it together. Send me an email (it's in my profile) and we can coordinate both of us writing an article on John 6.

When doing this I like to do the entire article by myself with just the text, a dictionary and a concordance. When I'm finished this step, I then have a look at commentaries and other articles to see how my analysis matched up.

We could do something like this together and then post a link back here for others who may be following this thread.

If this is not something you are able to do, then that is also fine. Thank you for your input and for listening to mine.

Go Share Your Faith said...

Tim,

Quoting you:

Robert, when you say

I'm sorry...I thought you'd have remembered John 6:37 and the context leading into this passage. My whole last post was on John 17, John 6 is not the context of John 17 nor anything I was talking about.
(Tim, I understand this; but the discussion of “God gives men to the Son” found in John 6 IS relevant since the same language is being used again, no? The understanding of John 17 is somewhat built on having already heard John 6. The giving of men to the Son is said of all believers.

Jesus has already explained why some believe, that they are given; so when you see “all those you have given me” in John 17; yes...it's specifically speaking of the disciples, but by extension, it's also about us.

1. "...however later on Jesus prays for all believers in verse 20" You're exactly right, he prays for those will believe the disciples "believe on me through their word". But the next few verses talk about unity of those believers. Christ is praying for unity so "that the world may believe that thou hast sent me" (vs 21).

Everyone comes to the text with presuppositions, but I don't think anything in John 17 supports a Calvinistic presupposition.
(I know; you've said that several times but it just doesn't wash.

Jesus is NOT praying for “those whom came to him through their own free will and luckily for everyone, he's probably gonna be able to save them...except for ...whoops!!! What happened to Judas?”

No...that's not the way John puts it...he talks about the Father giving men to the Son, the (election) the Son keeping them (perseverance) Judas fulfilling prophesy by his “predestining to destruction” (predestination)

What's tough about that? It's right there.

2. "I think that the Arminian assertions of libertarian free will, and an impotent God who is trying to save everyone but in actuality saves no one is the bold claim." I never claimed any of this. Why try to weaken my responses by implying that I would actually believe that? I don't believe that; I've actually never studied Arminian and what he believed, but if he taught that then I definitely DO NOT agree him!(Tim, whoa...slow down....I didn't say that you did believe that...I merely said that I DON'T THINK that Calvinism is a bold claim, and that Arminianism IS a bold claim.)


God is all powerful... He is God. We both serve and love the same all powerful, all knowing God! Reading through the old and new testament clearly shows time after time God wanting (willing) people to love him and follow his commandments. People constantly fail and reject God. God has the ability to force all or some to chose him but the bible doesn't teach that. (No...it doesn't but it DOES teach that God is sovereign in the matter of men's salvation, and it's not a synergistic affair. God changes the sinners God hating heart, and the result is that they believe in faith.

It's not because he can't, it's because he chooses not to! There are many, many references that I could list here. (Not quite sure what you're talking about here)

Now, If we are done in John 17, moving on to John 6.

A proper discussion of John 6 will probably go on for quite a while with both of us not changing our minds. If you are interested to continue our discussion, perhaps we can study it together. Send me an email (it's in my profile) and we can coordinate both of us writing an article on John 6.

When doing this I like to do the entire article by myself with just the text, a dictionary and a concordance. When I'm finished this step, I then have a look at commentaries and other articles to see how my analysis matched up.

We could do something like this together and then post a link back here for others who may be following this thread.

If this is not something you are able to do, then that is also fine. Thank you for your input and for listening to mine.


(Tim, no...I've done mucho studies on John 6...I think that John 6 is very clear. And likewise, I appreciate the discussion and God bless.)

J0nDaFr3aK said...

you know, i dont agree with the doctrine of predestination. God commands every man in every place to repent of their sin. i know not all men will be saved, i know there are some who are prepared for the wrath of God (Jude Iscariot had to die to fulfil the Scriptures) I know, everyone's days are already written, and God knows those who'll be saved and those who'll be condemned. and I think I will one day know when i'll be forever worshipping him..
but i truly believe that the new birth is as powerful and humanly impossible as the resurrection of the dead. and i believe that the new birth happens when Christ is fully formed in the believer. this is something i've heard from PW preachings and that i have checked in the Scriptures. and i know that when one is born again is a new creature. the old is gone and the new has come. a deep and life-changing work is done by the Holy Spirit and the believer is deeply and radically changed. it's not by works, but by the grace of God. I know salvation depends totally on God when I truly repent and turn away from my sin.. and i believe regeneration may take more than just a moment in some case, like when the believer hardly allows God to break him.
but i also believe that those who hope in Christ's return purify themselves just like he is pure.
Jesus said that if one's not born again wont go to heaven, paul said if one doesn't sanctify themselves won't go to heaven.. it all starts with the regeneration and keeps on going with sanctification. and as Paul writes to all the churches, sanctification is every believer's responsability (lay down the dead works of the flesh and so on...)

Go Share Your Faith said...

J0nDaFr3aK,

that doesn't sound like a very consistent position; on the one hand you don't believe in predestination...(in other words the future is uncertain and/or men are in charge of their own salvation)...but on the other hand...you sound very Calvinistic...God is sovereign,

hmmmm

Tim said...

Just thought I would update this thread as 'Go Share Your Faith' and I were discussing different passages. I continued to study as I admitted in my very first post that I was just getting into my investigations. We went through John 17, and while I don't believe this passage to be a 'proof-text' for Calvinism, it is consistent with the doctrine.

At the end of our discussion I mentioned a more in depth look at John 6 which I did on my own. I also reviewed many other passages which are used to support both Arminian and Calvinistic doctrines.

I'm sure 'Go Share Your Faith' will grin when he reads this but while it is just a label, I would now agree to Calvinistic teachings or the reformed doctrines of grace or whatever moniker it may have.

If you are honest and consistent with the scriptures I believe it to be an accurate description of God's work in salvation.

So I encourage anyone reading this who is unsure to research as much as you can and don't fall for rhetoric like "If Calvinism is true then..." or other argumentation which just appeals to our human flesh. Consider the scripture and what it says, that is what you accept.

Go Share Your Faith said...

Tim,
Lol...yes...that line did make me grin...

I have to say; I applaud you for being fair and honest about scripture in your study. I also thank God that he's graciously opened your eyes in that regard.

The doctrines of Grace are beautiful truths about God and His mercy and goodness.

God bless brother,
if you need anything or want to talk...you can reach me at:

rpavich at gmail dot com

SemperReformanda said...

Oh man, somebody really needs to go over Romans 9 already! lol :)

Also, I'd like to contribute John 6:44 -- Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

Interestingly enough, the Greek word there for "draws" is "helkuo", which means "to drag". It is the same word that is used for "drawing" fish out of the sea in a net against their will, and the same word used when someone goes and applies their will to a bucket of water, "drawing" it out of a well. The fish aren't powerful enough to choose whether they will be drawn or not, let alone the bucket. It is also the same word used when Paul and Silas were "dragged" into the streets and beaten.

It just seems very arrogant to me to assume any responsibility for my salvation. As Paul quotes in Romans, "There is NONE righteous... NONE who understand... NONE who seek after God." Interestingly enough, in Greek, "none" means the exact and absolute opposite of "all", as in, "no, not one", which is also used in that verse. How can we "find God" when we are fallen, sinful creatures, and the Scripture says that we do NOT seek God?

Over and over again, the NT said God chose us. It repeatedly calls us the elect (how is the President elected? People choose him. this is no coincidence in the use of those words). How arrogant are we to think that we can "unchoose" ourselves and tell God "no" when He's the one that chooses us, purchases us, and makes us His slaves?

Jesus said it best: "My Father is greater than all [including all of us]...No one [not even you] can pluck you out of my Father's hands."

Sorry this is long. But it's not right to claim God's credit. Like John Newton (author of Amazing Grace) agreed, I'm an absolutely hopeless sinner, destined to doom, outside of God's sovereignty and grace.

Go Share Your Faith said...

SR,
Amen.

Anthony said...

Alright people, we are all Christ's children.
Rather than bicker about 2nd tier theology why not do what is commanded of us in scripture.
Matthew 28:18-20
"Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always even to the very end of the age."
I Thessalonians 5:16-18
"Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus."
Matthew 18:14
"In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost."

For you Calvinists;
You should be out on the streets, with the unsaved, down in the dirt, spreading the word of God to every person you meet. IF they are meant to be saved they will be. Arguing minor doctrine with other Christians does very little to spread the kingdom of Christ, care for the poor, or encourage the brethren. If you spread Jesus to every person you meet the ones who are meant to be saved will be. It saddens me that good Christ followers would spend so much time arguing with each other when they could be preparing themselves to speak to the unbelievers they know.

For you who don't like Calvinist Doctrine:
Again you are called to preach to everyone. Rather than WASTING time in front of a stupid conversation over unimportant doctrine you should be spreading the word. Everyone of us Christ followers is called to spread the gospel of Christ to every tribe, people, nation, and tongue.

STOP BICKERING WITH EACH OTHER!!!!!! RATHER, LIFT EACH OTHER UP!!!!! ENCOURAGE EACH OTHER IN YOUR MINISTRY!!!! STOP ENGAGING IN USELESS CONVERSATION AND USE YOUR TIME FOR THE KINGDOM AND GLORY OF OUR WONDERFUL SAVIOR!!!!!!!!!!!

Go Share Your Faith said...

@Anthony,
that was way too funny to leave alone...

How ironic that you come here and post a comment to tell us to...well...not come here and post!

Now that's funny!

And for the record; it's not bickering...it's discussing God's truth, you may have drawn an imaginary dividing line which you think people should not cross, thankfully, Christian history has not taken your stance and felt that all of God's truth is worth discussing.


I found it pretty funny that your next scripture citation was Jesus telling them to teach ALL that he taught....not just the "basics" but everything...(apparently he didn't see subjects as "Who did Jesus intend to save when he went to the cross" as merely a "side issue"...)

And this next part was especially good...

Quote:For you Calvinists;
You should be out on the streets, with the unsaved, down in the dirt, spreading the word of God to every person you meet. IF they are meant to be saved they will be."


Wow...what a completely arrogant assumption that Calvinists posting here don't evangelize...


And you add again:

"Arguing minor doctrine with other Christians does very little to spread the kingdom of Christ, care for the poor, or encourage the brethren. "

Then why, pray tell are you spending your time arguing here with us and not "hitting the streets and witnessing as you are commanded to do? That sounds a little hypocritical doesn't it?



And I have to defend my Arminian brothers here; you call what they are discussing "stupid conversation" and "wasting time"...

Again...how completely self centered and arrogant of you.

Where is your Christian spirit?

How about lifting us up instead of tearing us down??


So...I hope that none of the irony of this whole situation is lost on you...

It was good for a belly laugh...thanks, I needed that.

Timothy Law said...

Jane chose not to follow calvin because she/he got hurt by those claiming to be calvinist, plain and simple.

Mary said...

God is good. He would never command men to do something they are incapable of doing. That would be cruel. He would not claim He is willing that none should perish if He has already predestined many for hell. That would be deception. God would never imply we can choose if we cannot. He is incapable of lying. The God of the Bible is pure, holy, righteous, just, loving and merciful.

Micah Gano said...

listen,
who did God choose?
you and you?

how dare you say that God chooses you..
i believe that is calling everyone to repent..
Romans 9 clearly explains that God's mercy is to whom he choose.. and it is the mercy of God..
you go to chapter 10 it clearly says that "salvation is open to all" it means that all who believe in the Lord shall be save..
so who did he choose?
you?
think about your own sin, isn't it that you have done things so shameful upon the eyes of the Almighty?
my question to you right now is
has there ever been a time that someone was saved thru your prayer life?

Micah Gano said...

listen,
who did God choose?
you and you?

how dare you say that God chooses you..
i believe that is calling everyone to repent..
Romans 9 clearly explains that God's mercy is to whom he choose.. and it is the mercy of God..
you go to chapter 10 it clearly says that "salvation is open to all" it means that all who believe in the Lord shall be save..
so who did he choose?
you?
think about your own sin, isn't it that you have done things so shameful upon the eyes of the Almighty?
my question to you right now is
has there ever been a time that someone was saved thru your prayer life?