Tuesday, August 19, 2008


"Here certainly, there is no place for the vain argument of those who defend the foreknowledge of God against the grace of God, and accordingly maintain that we were elected before the foundation of the world because God foreknew that we would be good, not that He Himself would make us good. This is not the language of Him who said, 'You did not choose Me, but I chose you' (John 15:16)."


Athanasius said...

I wonder what you'd do with quotes such as this from Augustine:

Blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay you with praise and thanksgiving for having rescued a fallen world by your generous consent? What songs of praise can our weak human nature offer in your honor, since it was through you that it has found the way to salvation? Accept then such poor thanks as we have to offer, unequal though they be to your merits. Receive our gratitude and obtain by your prayers the pardon of our sins. Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven and enable them to bring about our peace with God.
May the sins we penitently bring before Almighty God through you be pardoned. May what we beg with confidence be granted through you. Take our offerings and grant our request; obtain pardon for what we fear, for you are the only hope of sinners. We hope to obtain the forgiveness of our sins through you. Blessed Lady, in you is our hope of reward.
Holy Mary, help the miserable, strengthen the discouraged, comfort the sorrowful, pray for your people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God. May all who venerate you, feel now your help and protection. Be ready to help us when we pray, and bring back to us the answers to our prayers. Make it your continual care to pray for the People of God, for you were blessed by God and were made worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world, Who lives and reigns forever.

—Saint Augustine

Philip@ReformedVoices said...

What do you suggest I do with it?

Athanasius said...

You tell me, you have two quotes from Augustine, one that supports your view and another that clearly doesn't. So how does one pick and choose which theological idea's of Augustine to follow, considering the great admiration Calvinist's (from what I've seen on many Reformed blogs and Theologians) have for him?

Philip@ReformedVoices said...

Well, as with anyone, you compare what they say with the Word of God and see how it stands. I am hesitant to go any further than the Bible goes in regards to Mary- "Blessed among women."

Many have gone far beyond the Scripture's view of Mary. I must ask, why isn't there mention of Mary past the book of Acts if she is worthy of such praise as the Catholics give her?

I will return the question, why do Catholics cling to Augustine's Mary adoration and yet despise his soteriology in favor of synergistic free will?

Athanasius said...


I couldn't tell you that, I'm not a Catholic. What I can say is, I'm not a Calvinist and without modification to the five points of Calvinism, I see no reason to accept it as a viable view of God's divine foreknowledge. I consider myself a Molinist; I recognize God's sovereignty and his ability to intervene in our lives, but I cannot(nor should anyone else claiming to read the scriptures unbiasedly) deny that God leaves it up to us to make the ultimate decision. As the Bible is packed full of his actions being dependent on our actions.